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Kurt Mahlburg recently joined the Feminine Manifesto Podcast to unpack why Australia Day matters. The interview covered topics like colonisation, forgiveness and the underlying worldview that’s shaping the Australia Day debate.

The Australia Day debate is often framed as a question of dates, but the deeper issue is worldview.

I recently joined Heather Varga on the Feminine Manifesto Podcast where we explored the worldview question — and discussed truth, history and reconciliation from a Christian perspective.

The abridged transcript below captures our discussion on all things Australia Day.

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Heather: Thanks so much for coming. It’s a privilege to have this chat with you… There’s so much I find to celebrate about being Australian today. Why do you personally like to celebrate Australia Day?

Kurt: I love history and I love looking back at the past — how our country came to be. We began as essentially a prison colony. Obviously there were free settlements, South Australia being one of those. But when you look at where we came from — essentially just a bunch of ragtag Brits that got dumped here a couple of hundred years ago — and the amazing, prosperous, incredibly blessed nation that we are today, I think that’s something to be extremely proud of and very grateful for. So when I think about Australia Day, it’s in that context of looking back over the passage of time and seeing where we came from and just how amazingly blessed we are. I think that’s something really to celebrate.

Heather: I completely agree.

Public Support vs Media Narrative

Heather: So in a recent article, you mentioned that the majority of Australians — 76% — actually want to celebrate Australia Day on the 26th of January. That’s a great statistic because when you look at the political landscape and the news, it doesn’t seem like this. What’s your thoughts? What do you think explains that?

Kurt: To talk about that statistic first, it comes from the IPA, the Institute of Public Affairs. People might criticise that group because they are centre-right, but they’ve tracked this question over time and not only is it substantial at 76%, but it’s also grown over recent years. Last year it was 69% support, so that’s up by another seven percentage points. But it’s not just the IPA. There are other groups that ask similar questions. I saw a Roy Morgan poll recently — it came out and showed something like 60% of Australians want to retain the 26th of January as Australia Day. So it’s not just the IPA, it’s not some right-wing thing. There’s actually pretty good evidence out there that there’s very strong support for celebrating Australia Day as we currently do.

As to why there’s a disconnect between what the public seems to want and what the media is portraying, I see that misalignment manifested in countless ways in the media. The views portrayed on the nightly news, in the newspapers, and by big media organisations just don’t align with the views of everyday Australians on just about any topic you can imagine. The media has its own interests. Often there are people at the top who have certain agendas. Generally journalists come from a more elitist, highly educated background, insulated from the concerns and difficulties of everyday Australians — or everyday Americans, whoever it might be. This is a phenomenon seen across the Western world. There’s an elite bubble in the media. There’s also ideological and historical developments — we could talk about neo-Marxism. But I think it’s not just on Australia Day. On almost any culture-war topic, the views of everyday Australians and the views of journalists and media are vastly different in so many cases.

Heather: And because of the way this is put forward through the media, people would be fearful of expressing their views because it’s so politically charged.

Kurt: Absolutely. Sadly, that’s the kind of environment that’s been created in many Western countries. In Australia in particular, people feel quite afraid to voice what they really think. The irony is that maybe the majority of people we work alongside, study alongside, or just do life alongside actually share our views. But we’ve all learned how to self-censor. We’ve become fearful of expressing what should be normal opinions. I think that’s very sad. So it is important to be able to talk openly about this like we’re doing today.

When Does Indigeneity Begin?

Heather: I really appreciate your thoughts on how long it takes for a people to become indigenous to their own country. Like you, I’ve lived in Australia my entire life. My whole family history has been here for over six generations, both coming out as free settlers from Scotland to South Australia. That takes us to at least the mid-1800s. But I’m not considered indigenous. To say that is probably quite offensive even in our culture now. Can you take us through your thoughts here about that?

Kurt: You’ve hit an important point: it probably is seen as offensive to even suggest the possibility of a Caucasian Australian being indigenous to Australia. It might be seen by some as trying to take the identity of indigenous Australians. That’s not my intention. But the concept of indigeneity is a really fascinating one. In the article I wrote about the Peramangk people — that’s the tribe that originally lived on the land in the Adelaide Hills where I live today. What I explained is they likely took it by conquest from tribes before them who likely took it by conquest from tribes before them. That’s based on what we understand about the history of pre-colonial Australia: there was warfare, intertribal warfare, violence, land acquisition. That’s well known. We don’t know the specifics about the Peramangk, but generally speaking that was the case in Australian history.

If you go back beyond that, Australia wasn’t always inhabited by anyone. The Peramangk were descended from groups of migrants that came through South East Asia, through the Asian subcontinent, back to the Middle East. Depending on your views of origins — perhaps Africa, or as a Christian, I believe from the Tower of Babel where God created the whole human family and we spread out from there — it’s not as though Australia was always inhabited. There’s also the possibility that there were people here before the Aboriginal Australians came.

The point is, the concept of indigeneity is very subjective and very time-bound. If the Peramangk could be understood to be indigenous to this land but they weren’t always here, and my ancestors have been here for generations, how long do we have to wait until I’m considered indigenous? That’s essentially the question I was asking. I’m not claiming to be indigenous. I’m simply challenging the very idea of indigeneity. The reason I think it needs to be challenged is that perhaps initially there were good intentions behind these categories of indigenous and non-indigenous in Australian discourse. But over recent years, those divisions have actually created more division in Australian culture rather than healing.

And it’s not that I’m a white Australian and all Aboriginal Australians disagree with me. That’s not the case at all. There are activists who disagree with me of both indigenous and non-indigenous heritage. But likewise, there are indigenous and non-indigenous Australians who agree with me. The ideological lines are not racial; they’re ideological. There are plenty of really well-respected Aboriginal Australians who take my view, who really don’t like the categories of indigeneity and non-indigeneity. This is an ideological division, not a racial one.

It’s Not About the Date

Heather: As you’ve mentioned, we’re beginning to see that the problem here isn’t actually the date. It’s an ideological problem and the fact that Australia exists, as you’ve pointed out in the article. This came out quite clearly in that picture by the popular feminist artist Charlotte Allingham, depicting an Aboriginal girl standing on a white man, spearing him quite gruesomely with the Australia flag being burnt and “abolish Australia” written on it. That was really confronting to see. You’ve written on that too, which I found really helpful.

You’ve already touched on it being an ideological debate. But do you think changing the date is going to have any influence on helping us move forward here?

Kurt: The reality is there’s a spectrum of views on Australia Day and on changing the date. I don’t want to lump everyone in one category and assume they all think the same. I’m a Christian and I know there are Christians who would want to change the date and Christians who think it’s great as it is, as I do. Whether Christian or non-Christian, there really is a spectrum of views. Some people are very soft on this issue and would say let’s change the date, let’s try to appease all these issues that are talked about each year when Australia Day approaches in the hopes that it will settle the question. For some people that will settle it. But if you look a little deeper, this is not just a question of the date. There’s a whole ideological background to this, which is essentially decolonisation. If you and your listeners are familiar with that ideological framework, the idea is we need to decolonise Australia. Australia was colonised by the British and still has British, Caucasian, largely Christian influences in all of our institutions. Obviously that’s faded a lot over recent decades, but it’s still there. We have the rule of law, democratic institutions, marriage is still upheld though it’s changed a lot. But that’s all essentially baggage from colonisation. The idea of the decolonisation movement is to unsettle the notion that all of that is the right way to do things — that Australia as it currently stands is invalid and needs to be totally remade in the image of Marxism or the decolonisation narrative.

For some, Australia is a wedge issue and they’re hoping that if we change the day, that will open the door to everything else they want to achieve, which in many cases is totally remaking Australia. You don’t have to go very far online — if you google “Australia” and “decolonisation” — to see what some of these people are hoping to achieve. We saw some of that in the Voice debate as well.

Grace Without Historical Amnesia

Heather: There would be a lot of Christians — we’re both Christians — coming from a perspective of forgiveness and wanting to restore people, wanting to show love, who would think let’s just change the date so we can share this with Indigenous people and make a step forward toward that. However, seeing this from the perspective of a decolonisation movement that wants to abolish everything Australia has created, that’s a real problem.

Kurt: It is. As a Christian, I’m sensitive to that very gracious attitude — let’s concede just this one issue and hope it can foster reconciliation. I think a lot of Christians have good motives in thinking that way. But I also try to take a historical lens on this. When you look at all the dates that have already been added to our calendar — not all are national holidays, but many are marked by significant celebrations — they’re talked about on the news, the ABC, churches even get on board with a lot of them, whether it’s NAIDOC Week or National Sorry Day. There’s a list — I provided this in the article — maybe a dozen dates on the national calendar every year that are really centred on grieving what happened to Indigenous Australians, essentially apologising for colonisation in various forms. I’m not convinced that if we’ve already added all these dates, and each year we’re marking them as opportunities to mourn colonisation and what happened to Indigenous people, that changing the date of Australia Day will somehow achieve what all those other changes have not achieved. I’m very doubtful about that.

Heather: That was helpful, you putting down all those dates that were already marked within Australia. Just to think about that.

Kurt: I don’t necessarily contest that we shouldn’t mark those days. Obviously there are things to grieve, there are things to mourn. But I really am doubtful that changing one more day is going to fix things that all those other changes have not already fixed.

When History Becomes One-Sided

Heather: Making room for this debate to actually take into account how we can move forward and grieve what has happened — because there have been grievances and horrible things throughout history. However, the current debate and the current push from this side is not helpful.

Kurt: It’s also fairly unbalanced. We are called to grieve and mourn colonisation and what happened to Indigenous Australians, and for good reason in many cases. But we are prevented or very much discouraged from celebrating the good that colonisation brought. The fact that you and I are talking on these devices over thousands of kilometres — that modern technology is one of the blessings of colonisation in Australia. We wouldn’t be able to do this were it not for that. We wouldn’t be living under rule of law. We wouldn’t be living in air-conditioned homes with high-quality clothing. All of these things are blessings of colonisation, and we’re not allowed generally to talk about the good things. We are only told to mourn the bad things. I think that’s pretty unbalanced. It’s a pretty pessimistic view of history and not a very accurate or honest one.

Heather: What do you see as a pathway moving forward so that we can celebrate this great country that we do live in?

Kurt: At the end of the day, you’re not going to appease certain segments of the population. There’ll always be a minority that are loud about Australia Day and wanting to push forward the decolonisation narrative — abolish Australia, abolish Australia Day, all of that. We live in a democratic country and I appreciate that I can put my views forward, so other people who think differently should also have the right to speak on these issues. I’m not suggesting we should shut the debate down totally. I don’t know whether there’s a solution as such. I guess just telling the truth. Ironically, truth-telling is something we’re told a lot about in this space of Indigenous activism. But there’s a lot of truths we’re not supposed to talk about that are taboo. If we do — as I just have, for example, the blessings of colonisation — if we’re allowed to tell the truth about that and continue telling the truth about it and trying to get more of a balanced perspective, then I think the segment pushing to abolish Australia Day will shrink because it’s just an untenable position. More talk about this and not less is probably the best way forward. They say truth is the best disinfectant, right?

Final Reflections on Australia Day

Heather: That’s really helpful. You can tell that you’ve researched a lot on this and have thought through it quite deeply. Thanks for doing that and thanks for putting these articles out there. It’s really helpful for lay people like myself and people reading this.

Kurt: Of course. Thanks.

Heather: It was great to chat with you through this topic. Hope you have a great Australia Day.

Kurt: Thanks so much, Heather. It’s been great to be with you. Happy Australia Day.

Heather: Thanks.

So ultimately, personally, for me, this comes down to a worldview problem. If you believe the world was created by God, humans were created equally in His image, and that all nations of the earth were dispersed around 5,000 years ago from the Tower of Babel, the notion of Aboriginal complete sovereignty doesn’t hold up. Additionally, in this debate there’s no talk about forgiveness. Forgiveness is a distinctively Christian notion, and without it we’re going to be left in this perpetual sorry state where your ancestry determines whether you are a victim or an oppressor, despite never having committed or faced those injustices. We’ve all sinned against God and all deserve punishment for that. However, He offers forgiveness to those who will receive it. So come to Jesus and receive the forgiveness that He offers, and then be free to offer that to others so that we can unite as fellow Australians and celebrate this beautiful country that we live in together.

Thanks for joining us today. We hope you found this discussion beneficial, and it is our prayer that this will cause you to see Christ more clearly within our culture.

Listen to the full interview here.

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Image courtesy of Freepik.